To all members

Originally from: Farmtalking
                        
I started this message board because I thought there was a need for an easy method of exchanging information, help and advice for farming families in the UK that was linked to the web site 'Farmtalking'

All I requested was that members be constructive, courteous and polite in their postings to the board.

There have been very few occasions when this has not been the case and a gentle reminder of this request has always seen a return to the lively debate and useful info posted by members.

I have never barred anyone from the board (apart from spam).

However, the recent request to one member – has been met with further insults.

Not only did I repeat the request for constructive, courteous and polite postings but another member requested an apology. That has now been refused.

I am extremely saddened by the fact that Gary Burkholder (Burkie), who has been a member for a long time and contributed so much with his messages and support, has now let us down. Sadly he seems to have come to the conclusion that we need to be insulted and berated in order for us to 'act' to bring about changes for the better in our country.

I think he is mistaken in this attitude as many contriutors to this board continually 'act' in a manner that is constructive, couteous and polite and are working hard to bring about changes for the better.

I am not prepared to continue to tolerate this message board being destroyed in this way and the members being personally insulted or abused by anyone.

Therefore, until I receive an aopology from Gary that I can copy to the board and an undertaking that he will abide by the request concerning fhis future postings, I have reluctanly barred him from sending messages to this board.

I apologise to members who have received several copies of the last message from Burkie and that they also appear on the board. I cannot delete them as Smartgroups does not allow deletion of messages once they are part of a thread.

Jane
                        

Originally from: lina
                        
Hi Jane,
Giving help and advice is exactly what Burkie has been
doing for a long time, he has also been very
constructive.
I think taking him of this list is overdoing things a
lot. Just because people have a difference of opinion
and speak their mind does not mean that they are
trying to be rude. He let us down you say? well i am
sorry but i don't feel that way, and i do not agree
with that statement. I know that there are others who
feel the same way and have written that off list to
him.
Me myself? i rather state openly how i feel on list.
You think he has been impolite because of the way he
puts things sometimes, if that is so then i am sorry
to have to say that that are more way's to be
impolite. Like you yourself have also done a view
times. Again i am sorry to have to say this but i have
noticed that you get rather stingy when someone does
not agree with you, or see's thing in a different way.
I have also noticed that you yourself after a
difference of opinion have the habit of no longer
replying to the person you are not agreeing with. For
me that is much more impolite then answering and
making a statement, even though that might come over
in a wrong way, like it has now happened with Burkie.
i know i have made some mistakes to in answering
people, for instance, when someone say's thank you for
posting this on list, i tend to say: no thanks, or
something like that, i do not mean that rude or wrong
it is just the way we (us Dutch) talk, we would say:
geen dank, which means no thanks. I do not mean for my
answers to be rude either, but like i told you before
we tend to speak in a much more direct way then you
English people. Americans do pretty much the same,
they just speak their minds in the way they are used
to, there is nothing wrong with that.
I would also like to know why he should apologize to
you Jane, i did not see anything wrong in his replies
to you ever. I have seen him post more information
then a lot of others, information that has been used
by others to. Often even without giving him credit for
it, that "and again" i think is also unpolite.
No offense but that is the way i feel.
Good luck and wisdom,
Lina
Ps, i think Burkie deserves a lot of credit for what
he has done, and he does not need to be scorned this
way.

--- ... wrote:
I started this message board because I thought there
was a need for an easy method of exchanging
information, help and advice for farming families in
the UK that was linked to the web site 'Farmtalking'

All I requested was that members be constructive,
courteous and polite in their postings to the board.

There have been very few occasions when this has not
been the case and a gentle reminder of this request
has always seen a return to the lively debate and
useful info posted by members.

I have never barred anyone from the board (apart
from spam).

However, the recent request to one member – has been
met with further insults.

Not only did I repeat the request for constructive,
courteous and polite postings but another member
requested an apology. That has now been refused.

I am extremely saddened by the fact that Gary
Burkholder (Burkie), who has been a member for a
long time and contributed so much with his messages
and support, has now let us down. Sadly he seems to
have come to the conclusion that we need to be
insulted and berated in order for us to 'act' to
bring about changes for the better in our country.

I think he is mistaken in this attitude as many
contriutors to this board continually 'act' in a
manner that is constructive, couteous and polite and
are working hard to bring about changes for the
better.

I am not prepared to continue to tolerate this
message board being destroyed in this way and the
members being personally insulted or abused by
anyone.

Therefore, until I receive an aopology from Gary
that I can copy to the board and an undertaking that
he will abide by the request concerning fhis future
postings, I have reluctanly barred him from sending
messages to this board.

I apologise to members who have received several
copies of the last message from Burkie and that they
also appear on the board. I cannot delete them as
Smartgroups does not allow deletion of messages once
they are part of a thread.

Jane

--
If you want to share pictures, use the calendar, or
start a vote
visit http://www.smartgroups.com/groups/farmtalking

To leave the group, email:

...

Originally from: Farmtalking
                        
Hi Lina!

Author wrote:
Hi Jane,
Giving help and advice is exactly what Burkie has been
doing for a long time, he has also been very
constructive.

I fully agree with this comment!

I think taking him of this list is overdoing things a
lot.

OK. I'll accept that's your opinion.

Just because people have a difference of opinion

and speak their mind does not mean that they are
trying to be rude.

Perhaps not, but we all need to consider what we are writing and how we are composing our messages and whether we might cause offense. There is no doubt in my mind that at times some of our members have intended to cause hurt and offense and we can do without it.

He let us down you say? well i am

sorry but i don't feel that way, and i do not agree
with that statement. I know that there are others who
feel the same way and have written that off list to
him.

I don't doubt that there are others that agree with you but at the same time there are those who do not. Unfortunately, like it or not, inspite of appeals from me and others, Burkie chose to repeat and stand by his posts. In doing so he has breached the requested terms for members of this board. If members feel they cannot abide by those terms they should cease to contribute.

I have written to Burkie off list twice, explaining my decision and requesting an apology, not for me personally, but for those on this list who feel hurt and offended. If he sends it to me, I'll post it on the board and reinstate him. I sincerely hope he complies, but of course that decision is his alone.

Me myself? i rather state openly how i feel on list.
You think he has been impolite because of the way he
puts things sometimes, if that is so then i am sorry
to have to say that that are more way's to be
impolite. Like you yourself have also done a view
times. Again i am sorry to have to say this but i have
noticed that you get rather stingy when someone does
not agree with you, or see's thing in a different way.
I have also noticed that you yourself after a
difference of opinion have the habit of no longer
replying to the person you are not agreeing with. For
me that is much more impolite then answering and
making a statement, even though that might come over
in a wrong way, like it has now happened with Burkie.
i know i have made some mistakes to in answering
people, for instance, when someone say's thank you for
posting this on list, i tend to say: no thanks, or
something like that, i do not mean that rude or wrong
it is just the way we (us Dutch) talk, we would say:
geen dank, which means no thanks. I do not mean for my
answers to be rude either, but like i told you before
we tend to speak in a much more direct way then you
English people. Americans do pretty much the same,
they just speak their minds in the way they are used
to, there is nothing wrong with that.

I accept what you say and we must all make allowances for different cultures and the manner in which they express themselves. Nevertheless this is a message board established in the UK and for the benefit of those associated with agriculture in this country. Therefore, members should carefully consider wheher or not their posts fall within the requested terms. 1. Are they 'Constuctive'
2. Are they 'Courteous'
3. Are they 'Polite'
If there is any doubt, they should reconsider their wording.
I have frequently made allowances for both British and Foreign members and no doubt at times appear somwhat 'stingy' as you say, when responding. If I have caused any hurt in that way I apologise unreservedly.

I also note you say that I seem not to respond to those with whom I seem to disagree. That is for two reasons! Firstly, I see no good reason, once I have stated my opinion, in 'labouring the point' and secondly, I see not point in referring to the subject again unless I've changed my mind!

I would also like to know why he should apologize to
you Jane, i did not see anything wrong in his replies
to you ever.

As explained, I do not seek a 'personal' apology, simply that he should, if he chooses to do so, e-mail it to me for the benefit of all the members, to be posted on the board.

As you know, another member requested an apology and therefore, as is common practise in the UK – in polite circles! – an apology should be forthcoming!

I have seen him post more information

then a lot of others, information that has been used
by others to. Often even without giving him credit for
it, that "and again" i think is also unpolite.

That may be true but... it was not my intention that this board should take the form of a competition to see who could post the most info or recieve any credit for doing so at all!

No offense but that is the way I feel.

No offense is taken at all, and thank you for your comments in this sad situation.

Let's hope we can all stick to the subject and purpose of this board from now on. There are plenty of others boards on which many different opinions on varied subjects can be aired.

Best wishes – Jane

Originally from: Ron
                        
Dear, dear Jane,

I am as much to blame. I should not have responded. My fault, if it is a fault, is that I am immensely proud of being British. I live in a country where we are subjected constantly to a barrage of 'apologies' for the 'misdeeds' of our past, in particular by our Politically Correct 'Rulers'. This causes me to respond strongly to such matters, no matter from where they arise.

We are an old Nation and our genes are spread throughout the World. We as members of this great Country are well aware of our faults and as we grow older knowledge of our history becomes more important to us.

We do not need external criticism, we do it ourselves daily. Just read the letter pages in any of our newspapers.

We are, I am sure, open to constructive advice. We may not choose to follow it, that is our prerogative. After all if we had listened to much of the advice given to us in 1939 I would be writing this in German. That is if I was alive to do it!!!

So I am sorry that I am partly the cause of this controversy, I will try to behave in future. Though being such an awkward Old Sod I cannot give a cast-iron guarantee.

By the way, I haven't touched alcohol for more than forty years.

In peace, Ron.
                        

Originally from: Farmtalking
                        
Hi Ron!

Thanks for this message! –
I will forward it to Burkie and hope he will decide to re-join us soon.

Best wishes – Jane

Originally from: PoppaC
                        
Book of Psalms
71:18
Now also when I am old and greyheaded, O God, forsake me not; until I have shewed thy strength unto this generation, and thy power to every one that is to come. __________________________________________________________

Book of James
Chapter 3

3:1
My brethren, be not many masters, knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation. 3:2
For in many things we offend all. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body. 3:3
Behold, we put bits in the horses' mouths, that they may obey us; and we turn about their whole body. 3:4
Behold also the ships, which though they be so great, and are driven of fierce winds, yet are they turned about with a very small helm, whithersoever the governor listeth. 3:5
Even so the tongue is a little member, and boasteth great things. Behold, how great a matter a little fire kindleth! 3:6
And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell. 3:7
For every kind of beasts, and of birds, and of serpents, and of things in the sea, is tamed, and hath been tamed of mankind: 3:8
But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison. 3:9
Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God. 3:10
Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be. 3:11
Doth a fountain send forth at the same place sweet water and bitter? 3:12
Can the fig tree, my brethren, bear olive berries? either a vine, figs? so can no fountain both yield salt water and fresh. 3:13
Who is a wise man and endued with knowledge among you? let him shew out of a good conversation his works with meekness of wisdom. 3:14
But if ye have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, glory not, and lie not against the truth. 3:15
This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish. 3:16
For where envying and strife is, there is confusion and every evil work. 3:17
But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy. 3:18
And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace.

Amen

Norm
                        

Originally from: Bill
                        
Burkie has worked hard at researching topical issues and has made some very useful contributions to this forum. We all get a little overheated at times, I am conscious that I have overstepped the mark on occasion.

I very much hope this matter can be resolved.

All the best,
Bill.
                        

Originally from: Bill
                        
Burkie has worked hard at researching topical issues and has made some very useful contributions to this forum. We all get a little overheated at times, I am conscious that I have overstepped the mark on occasion.

I very much hope this matter can be resolved.

All the best,
Bill.
                        

Originally from: lina
                        
Hi Bill,
I could not agree more. Unfortunately the moderator of
this group does not agree that this should count for
something. The demand for a apology seems to be more
important then contribution.
As been said, this is a UK list for the benefit of
those associated with agriculture in the UK, that kind
of rules out foreigners as far as i am concerned.
It is a shame that this has only now come up, because
it is my believe that we should be able to learn
something from people in other country's regarding the
way they think and regarding the way they solve their
agricultural problems. To bad that that is to be
considered as unwanted. I note also that differences
of opinion are no longer allowed as well as a variety
of subjects, as said there are many different boards
on which that can be aired. How far this goes is
beyond me. To be able to stick to a subject there has
to be one people are willing to discuss about, but the
problem is you never can tell which way a discussion
is going to go. And what if a difference of opinion
comes up during such a discussion? There have been
many in the past. One only has to take a look in the
message archive to see that differences of opinion
have been going on a lot always, and they have by not
been caused by the foreigners of this list or non UK
members. The talk about forgiveness, which has been
posted a couple of times to, does not seem to have any
meaning at all when it comes to it.
I am very sorry and i do not mean to be rude or
anything about this, but i must say that the help of a
certain foreigner or non UK member going on list by
the name of Burkie was sometimes more then helpful and
wanted. And i still feel that the massage posted about
him by the moderator about his so called mistakes was
unnecessary and yes also rude, rude because he did not
get a opportunity to reply to that on this list, he
was taken off before he could.
I know i could have replied to the reply i got but i
chose not to, i do not think that will solve anything
either considering the answers i got back.
So again sorry people but i think this whole thing has
been taken way out of contex.
And because i am a foreigner also i do not think i
will post any news i find on this list anymore, in
stead i think it would be better to just read the news
others send, because i do feel i might learn something
from others even though i also do not always agree
with them.
Take care,
Lina

Originally from: Ron
                        
Hi Lina,

As I was the one that was partly responsible for the upset, I think I should remind you what I asked Gary to withdraw. His implication that Great Britain had not repaid the Loan that the USA made with Lend-Lease was manifestly untrue. He has still not withdrawn that statement. The terms of the American assistance were very harsh and were responsible for much of Great Britain's financial trouble post-war.

You may not be aware that many items were still rationed until 1953. Great Britain was pumping aid into Europe within weeks of D Day. This was at the expense of the British taxpayer as well as producing shortages in this country.

The Americans pumped aid into Europe because they were scared of you all returning Communist governments. Great Britain in 1945 returned a stable government and therefor didn't get much aid. In effect we lost the war!!!

We were and still are an American aircraft carrier, some of their bases are top secret and not accessible to our forces. Their intelligence services do not let our intelligence services know what is being collected. We are being used for the protection of the USA and you for that matter.

So that is why Gary was asked the question about Menwith Hill.

As far as Farmtalking is concerned, very few people know the input that Jane put into setting it up and still does. I accept her judgement, I apply the rule that I used in similar situations, "If you don't like what I am doing, start your own'.

As I said in an earlier post we British are pretty good at beating our own backs, it's part of our national character. That's why we buy so much foreign junk and allow our own industries to go to the wall. Try and find anything British made in our shops today!!!

As a final comment, Hitler did not want to go to war with us, we declared war to try and stop his invasion of Europe's country's. We could have done a deal with him. At that time we had the most powerful Navy in the World.

In Peace, Ron.

P.s. I will quite happily return to writing 'funny' stories, just please lay of the British. We've got enough to put up with with our B***dy Government.
                        

Originally from: Farmtalking
                        
Hi Lina!

I reply to your message for Bill's attention below – I think a few corrections are necessary!

Hi Bill,
I could not agree more. Unfortunately the moderator of
this group does not agree that this should count for
something. The demand for a apology seems to be more
important then contribution.

J.B. That is not true; they are two quite different matters.
Being a good contributor does not exempt anyone from the terms of this board.>

As been said, this is a UK list for the benefit of
those associated with agriculture in the UK, that kind
of rules out foreigners as far as i am concerned.

J.B. If you consider that 'rules out foreigners' that's your conclusion, but it is, in fact, quite wrong. All nationalities and creeds are welcome to join this message board.>

It is a shame that this has only now come up, because
it is my believe that we should be able to learn
something from people in other country's regarding the
way they think and regarding the way they solve their
agricultural problems. To bad that that is to be
considered as unwanted.

J.B. We can and do learn from others in other countries. I have no idea why you draw the conclusion that such contributions are 'unwanted'>

 I note also that differences
of opinion are no longer allowed as well as a variety
of subjects, as said there are many different boards
on which that can be aired. How far this goes is
beyond me.

J.B. Differences of opinion most certainly are allowed and many different subjects have been aired, debated and tolerated, both 'on' and 'off' the topics introduced. Nevertheless, the Farmtalking Board is for the benefit of agriculturists and their families in the UK, with special regard to matters arising during and after the FMD crisis.>

To be able to stick to a subject there has
to be one people are willing to discuss about, but the
problem is you never can tell which way a discussion
is going to go. And what if a difference of opinion
comes up during such a discussion? There have been
many in the past. One only has to take a look in the
message archive to see that differences of opinion
have been going on a lot always, and they have by not
been caused by the foreigners of this list or non UK
members.

J.B. These remarks would seem to illustrate and confirm just how very tolerant and understanding the moderator must be!>

The talk about forgiveness, which has been
posted a couple of times to, does not seem to have any
meaning at all when it comes to it.
I am very sorry and i do not mean to be rude or
anything about this, but i must say that the help of a
certain foreigner or non UK member going on list by
the name of Burkie was sometimes more then helpful and
wanted.

J.B. I have already stated that I agree his postings have been appreciated.>

And i still feel that the massage posted about
him by the moderator about his so called mistakes was
unnecessary and yes also rude, rude because he did not
get a opportunity to reply to that on this list, he
was taken off before he could.

J.B. That is not true. Burkie was given every opportunity to abide by the requested terms of the Message Board and to withdraw his accusations and apologize; he refused to do so. I also wrote to him 'off list' pleading with him to undertake to abide by our terms and apologize as requested. He has replied, refusing to comply. That is his choice. He has not been 'taken off' the board but has been 'barred' from posting messages.

I will tolerate a great deal but I will not put up with what appears to have been a concerted effort to insult the British people, members of this Board and flagrantly defy the terms requested of members.

Please be in no doubt that I would do the same again if a member from the UK, or any other country, behaved in the same way or insulted any other nationality!

If you or any other member cannot accept this, please 'unsubscribe'.

I trust this really brings this matter to a close for everyone.

Jane