Fwd: EU adopts new legislation to combat FMD

Originally from: lina
                        
--- Bryn's Broadband <...> wrote:

Dear Friends,

Alicia has authorised this reply to go out to all,
in response to the posturing by Byrne and Brussels.

I agree with Alicia – the vaccines are there right
now, does it really take another 4 years to get the
show on the road and £40million. The hellish
slaughter in 2001 went ahead on pathetic scientific
advice based on shoddy 'models' that have been
proven to be mickey-mouse and were NOT VALIDATED.
Like the Blair's war, very "iffy" mandates to kill.

Bryn

----- Original Message -----
From: am.eykyn
To: Bryn's Broadband
Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2003 3:34 PM
Subject: Re: EU adopts new legislation to combat FMD

Dear Bryn,

If you want to send this to all please do – it is up
to you – I hope what I say can be proved wrong but I
fear it can't!!

'Emergency vaccination' doesn't add up to a row of
beans.

I am sorry to say that, but whatever Byrne says
about 'emergency vaccination' it adds up to no
change – at the most, vaccination to curb the
infection. This will inevitable lead to the
slaughter of the vaccinated animals as happened in
Holland in the last outbreak.

Why? Because 'those in charge' continue to
procrastinate about the science available and
continue to do nothing about VALIDATING the existing
tests for showing the difference between vaccinated
animals and naturally infected animals – the famous
carrier animal syndrome.

To get on and make a supreme international effort to
validate those tests was the biggest 'Instruction'
'Decision' (call it what you will) to come out of
the Brussels FMD December Conference, I know because
I was there as a delegate.

But as ever everything has come to nought – nothing
is achieved except a mountain of 'Reports' leading
nowhere. Showing once again what an APPALLING waste
of time and money these, show case, 'tremendously
important ' conferences are.

As is obvious absolutely NO lesson have been learned
at all, except to continue to test out the efficacy
of that very useful one, how to bluff the public
into believing otherwise. Like so much on so many
political subjects but in this case FMD, the same
people win all the time by working very hard at
doing nothing.
Alicia

Originally from: coleen
                        
Yes Lina could not agree more with what has been written. I hope Alicia is wrong – but she writes from experience.

We will only find out if ever faced with it again.
Coleen

Originally from: lina
                        
Hi Coleen,
I agree whith both her and Bryn to, but i sure hope no
one will ever have to face it again.
Lina

--- Coleen Taylor <...>

Originally from: frances fish
                        
Andrew, I have to take exception to some of your postings. I find them both insulting and incorrect. I believe you are a vet, I don't know if you are in practice or if you were directly involved in the 2001 FMD epidemic.I think that some of your colleagues who were wish they had not, in that respect,so do we. We do have that much in common. but for differing reasons. Let me tell you how it actually was, as you write "for the most part farmers were happy to take the compensation ". There was no compensation, that is a misnomer, there was only compulsory purchase, we received no compensation for loss of living or earnings. The lambs we could not sell, the ewes and rams we could not breed (because they killed them) were not taken into account, nor the fact that they may have been rare breeds or bloodlines that were irreplaceable. Death came to our part of the country swiftly, overnight it seemed. It aphixiated more than the animal population, it crushed the life out of the people as well. Fields that were full of life one day, lambs being born, cattle lowing, were eerily silent. Even the birds were hushed. And the faces, Andrew, you should have seen the faces ! I shall never forget the faces. Afterwards, some were confined to their farms,looking at 4 walls and remembering, the children were not allowed to go to school, even the wives had to get a licence to go shopping. A visit to the dentist was a day out! The grief, anguish and despair was palpable, it hurt, Andrew, it hurt unbearably at times. These people who"were happy to take the compensation" had the legs knocked from under them ,their dreams and hopes smashed to smithereens,they felt hopeless and helpless against the killing machine that was Defra,army and police, they did not feel happy.Many of these people are scarred for life, they will never get over it. A well-known local farmer whose pig was the cause of what he termed "some of the best farms in Berwickshire " being killed out , was devastated when a vet phoned him some time after the slaughter to say his blood tests for FMD were negative. He has to live with that the rest of his life. Both vets and farmers lost a lot during FMD, the vets forfeited trust and, well, I think you get an idea of what we on the other end lost. There is an essential and fundamental difference, though. Vets chose to collaborate, despite the fact that they ignored ethical guidelines from the RCVs, and us ? We had NO CHOICE AT ALL. Please, do feel free to dissect and pull to pieces what I have written , Andrew, there is plenty more to tell .Some of the recent postings have brought much back into my mind that I would rather have left there, locked away. I did not initiate this , at times, heated exchange, but I did want you to know that some of your more ascerbic remarks are as hurtful as they are untrue. Frances
                        

Originally from: lina
                        
As far as i remember the only ones who made money from
the slaughter where the slaughterman and the vets.
There were more lies told about FMD then anyone could
possible imagine, but like always if a lie is told
often enough it is believed to be the Truth.

Foot and Mouth – the management of a pseudo-crisis http://www.whatareweswallowing.com/
Lina

Originally from: coleen
                        
Dear Francis

I guess I must be the one who has opened up areas you did not wish to go. I was not sure who did and did not know about some people being allowed to keep some of their animals.

I wrote it – to show how totally pathetic and uncalled for the whole fmd fiasco was. If some animals could be spared – then they ALL could have been. If however many could have been monitored then so could they ALL. We would listen to the radio Kaz Graham in the late evening. Farmers were ringing in and crying 'my animals are healthy' – yet they are coming tomorrow to slaughter them. Why? Because someone 2 miles away had been confirmed or slaughtered on suspicion. No chance for them. It was not written to stir up hurtful memories. Just to show how ill thought out and wicked the whole exercise was.

I can remember very well that many people on this board at the height of fmd were calling for whatever ways we had to stop the mass slaughter, to be used. That included the rapid blood tests. True hindsight is a wonderful thing and maybe they would not have worked – then again they might just have. All I know is they were available and we ALL wanted them used. It is easy for people to sit back now and pull them to bits.

There were many people Andrew who did not want to loose their animals and were NOT rolling their hands together in glee, at the thought of all that money. Sure some did, but then you get those sort of people in ALL walks of life. Your own profession has a lot to answer for. I think we are also apt to forget that it was the Government who was turning this into a bean feast – by allowing the prices of compensation. Why? Well we know the answer to that, the cull was illegal and they wanted NO one to block their paths. Later they reduced the payment/compensation.

I remember one Vet telling us how he went trampling the Southlakeland fells slaughtering sheep. He later said it was NEVER in the sheep. To that many people have said 'yes but the sheep were bred to die anyway'. Well we all are born to die in the end. That is not the issue.

I remember Francis, and I so would like to see the real guilty culprits made to pay. If for no other reason – then to stop it happening all over again. If not through fmd, then TB, Scrapie or whatever else is out there just around the corner.

Coleen

Original Message -----
From: ...

Originally from: <...>

Originally from: lina
                        
Hi Bill,
Maybe this will answer some of your questions.
Lina
http://www.rense.com/general13/lies.htm

Originally from: Bill
                        
And of course the whole thing may have been started by vets who were testing FMD vaccines in Devon and selling carcasses to the meat trade.

Why was the Government so keen NOT to have any kind of investigation into where the disease had originated?

Why was Bobby Waugh so insistent the disease had not come from the Chinese takeaway?

Where was Bobby Waugh getting the animal bones he was burning? He was burning so many his premises had become a public nuisance and were being monitored (from July 2000) by the Local Authority Environmental Health.

The whole thing stinks, so to speak!
                        

Originally from: lina
                        
Sorry Andrew your post still comes up empty with a
attachment removed?
Lina

Originally from: MediaVets
                        
Frances

Originally from: MediaVets
                        
Coleen

At 10:08 02/10/2003 +0100, you wrote:
There were many people Andrew who did not want to loose their animals and
were NOT rolling their hands together in glee, at the thought of all that
money.

I agree. Did they respresent the majority do you feel? If so perhaps we should look (again) at why their voice was not heard.

Sure some did, but then you get those sort of people in ALL walks of
life.

Yes.

Your own profession has a lot to answer for.

I agree. But I don't feel that I should have to answer for them. I am at odds with may of the commonly held views and opinions of my profession. Probably one of the reasons I no longer practice it.

I think we are also apt
to forget that it was the Government who was turning this into a bean
feast – by allowing the prices of compensation. Why? Well we know the
answer to that, the cull was illegal and they wanted NO one to block their
paths. Later they reduced the payment/compensation.

I agree.

I remember Francis, and I so would like to see the real guilty culprits made
to pay.

That's quite understandable.

If for no other reason – then to stop it happening all over again.
If not through fmd, then TB, Scrapie or whatever else is out there just
around the corner.

But is soley focusing on trying to pin all the 'blame' on a few individuals
– those 'real guilty culprits' that you talk about – likely to be the best way of ensuring that such a thing never happens again?

regards,

Andrew
                        

Originally from: Farmtalking
                        
I seems to me that as Andrew says, we are too often tending to 'focus on the guilty' and lay blame on them, at times including the damnation of our friends who happen to share the same profession, when we should be grateful for their support, understanding and information.

Many vets, scientists, politicians and others are 'on our side' and have been so for a very long time, as has recently been indicated here.

Their efforts may take a long time to come to fruition but if that's what we want, surely we should be pleased and encourage them and express appreciation for their willingness to collaborate with us and others to try to seek a better way whether through legislation, science or medicine.

For more info take a look at –

http://www.farmtalking.com/thevet.html

and perhaps –

http://www.farmtalking.com/aboutus.html

Originally from: lina
                        
And here is another one that is still interesting.

http://www.quebecoislibre.org/010331–6.htm

There is also a great deal of argument about the
actual start time of this outbreak with the MAFF
identifying disease in a pig unit in Cumbria in
northern England on 22nd February. This is being
contrasted with a report that a French stock dealer
operating out of the UK, had sent infected sheep to
France on 31th January. Using an average incubation
period, this means that the animals which infected the
dealer's sheep were most probably exposed to infection
between 3–8 days prior to contact – i.e., between
23–28 January. It has been fairly well established
that none of the stock dealer's sheep came directly
from the Cumbrian pig unit, so they cannot have been
infected by the alleged « case zero » pigs.

 There must have been at least one other set
of animals that bridged the gap between the pig unit
and the sheep on the ferry to France. For the pigs
themselves to pass on the infection to these animals,
they must have been infected earlier, between 7–22
January. Without elaborating on the complexities of
this, the latest time for the disease to be visible in
the pig unit is then 25th January. Yet even today MAFF
is prepared only to concede that the infection may
have been present two weeks prior to the 22nd or about
8th February. Adding to the clouds of suspicion
surrounding this affair were reports of MAFF officials
making inquiries about purchasing « burn timber » in
November of last year.

Cheap sheep
 Fuelling the suspicion that there is more to this
than meets the eye is a report that eight days before
the official outbreak of FMD in the UK the Dutch dairy
industry met with the Dutch Agriculture Minister to
discuss tactics if FMD were to reach Holland from the
UK. Another report emerged last week that in 1998,
Agriculture Ministers from the EU met in secret
session to discuss a plan put forward by the European
Commission to abolish livestock farming in the English
region and to convert it instead to arable production.

Originally from: Pat Gardiner
                        
I can reply to this from direct personal experience and can back these allegations with documentary proof.

Prior to retiring I was a shipbroker

On the late afternoon of 20 March 2001 I relieved a phone call from Sky TV who asked for expert assistance with a story about FMD. The story had presumably come from Maff

Briefly, they had been told that seamen had come ashore and had sold smuggled infected meat to Chinese restaurants in Newcastle on T and that this had caused the FMD outbreak.

The story had technical errors, I told the journalist that I did not believe it, but despite my efforts it was published the following day in a modified form.

In the meantime, that evening I telephoned HMC&E, the operator agreed with me that the story was highly unlikely. He gave me an email address for an HMC&E office. I sent a report at exactly 1900 by email, telling them the details of the story.

I received an email acknowledgment at exactly 0800 on the morning of the 21st March 2001

Two Cabinet Ministers had to apologise, one twice. The Chinese community were paid compensation, but there seems to have been a gagging clause. Their website telling the world all about it was removed from the WWW.

Later I was to learn, form very reliable sources, that there was a second attempt to plant a different story blaming infected meat via Newcastle port. A specific vessel was mentioned that could not, in my opinion, have possibly been responsible.

My presumption is that Maff had something to hide.

You can read this and the true story of my personal experiences on

www.go-self-sufficient.com
 “Stop the world”

Regards
Pat Gardiner

Originally from: Farmtalking
                        
I think Pat is absolutely right.
There were and still are, many instances of a similar nature.

Some of them, like Pat's experience, which are backed up by his e-mail references, etc, can hardly be denied.

Info that has appeared on even official sites has disappeared or been altered, but is remembered.

Umpteen rumours were spread re FMD and there seems to be no doubt that some of them carried an element of truth even if, try as we might, we couldn't trace the original source and get to the bottom of the story.

As with most rumours they become distorted and/or enhanced!

Another reason why I've thought it so important that we exchange accurate info and if we make a mistake we say so and try to correct it.

From: ...

Originally from all the rumours and reported experiences however carefully collated and checked, I doubt we will ever know the whole truth or that it would really help us if we did.

There will always be those to try to decieve others for many reasons and can succeed in doing so, which is a fairly good reason to trust no one!

One of the best things to come from the internet is that info we don't trust can usually be checked from many other sources and if not, it's wise to ignore it. Proven truths can be published and propogated just as easily as deceits exposed!

Originally from: Val Collinson
                        
Andrew

You ask whether those farmers who didn't want to lose their stock were in the majority and if so, why their voices were not heard.

Who listens to farmers? Certainly not the government – why should they? Farmers are electorally insignificant in this country and therefore farming has always been used for political expediency.

I am certain that the majority of farmers would have chosen not to lose their stock – healthy stock, killed in such a brutal way goes right against the grain for anyone who practices animal husbandry for a living – I choose the words to differentiate farmers from dealers, who are stock keepers of a different ilk.

Having lost their stock, however, can you really blame them for accepting as much 'compensation' as was available? This is an entirely separate issue, since few farmers actually had the choice.

I personally would not have gone through that with my dairy cows for any number of £millions and I am certain all other farmers who were closely involved with their stock would feel exactly the same – the ones I know certainly did and were extremely traumatised by the proximity of the

Val C
                        

Originally from: MediaVets
                        
Val

You ask whether those farmers who didn't want to lose their stock were in the majority and if so, why their voices were not heard.

Who listens to farmers? Certainly not the government – why should they? Farmers are electorally insignificant in this country and therefore farming has always been used for political expediency.

....

Yet in not so distant past farmers had a lot of influence. An during the FMD epidemic the NFU said to represent an even smaller proportion of farmers had a significant influence on policy – esp. WRT rejection of vaccination.

And many other 'minority interests' which are also 'electorally insignificant do get listened to and have influence on policy.

My feeling is that like minded farmers need to organise so they can speak thorugha focused 'channel' with one voice – that's the way other minorities achieve results I think.
........

I am certain that the majority of farmers would have chosen not to lose their stock – healthy stock, killed in such a brutal way goes right against the grain for anyone who practices animal husbandry for a living – I choose the words to differentiate farmers from dealers, who are stock keepers of a different ilk.
........

Good point and I appreciate that many farmers lacked affiliation to any sort of organisation that could represent their collective views/resistance WRT the policy adopted towards the FMD epidemic. Until this is remedied I fear they will remain isolated and vulnerable.It has now been proved beyond doubt surely that they cannot rely on Govt always to act in their (the famers we are talking about) best interest, as perhaps they did in the 'glory days' post WW2 and later.

Regards,

Andrew
                        

Originally from: Val Collinson
                        
Andrew

 You say that in the not so distant past, farmers had a lot of influence. I think that the simple reason for this was that many politicians were also farmers! Maybe 'digging for Britain' also had a little to do with it at one time.

WRT vaccination, it was not only the NFU who were against it – Peter Jinman is our vet – a highly intelligent and well informed man, and very involved in the FMD outbreak and frustrated by the inpenetrable bureacracy we all had to deal with. If I understood him correctly, he reckoned that the vaccine then available was not sufficiently reliable, particularly in sheep, in which the uptake was apparently poor, to be safely used and that it was not possible to police 'ring vaccination' areas sufficiently to prevent unauthorised movements and therefore identification of the disease per se would have become impossible. So it was not just the NFU. Furthermore, as a dairy farmer in an infected area I would vehemently have resisted vaccination, because, apart from the fact that I did not trust the govt not to slaughter my stock at some future time, simply because they had been vaccinated, but also because we, in the infected area were treated like lepers by those in West Wales who were free of the disease and I am perfectly certain that vaccinated stock would similarly have been spurned – both by farmers and also maybe by consumers. I am convinced that the only way to use vaccination would be to vaccinate every susceptible animal in the country!

The minority interests who get listened to are largely those with nothing better to do than concentrate on the single issue onto which they have latched and make a huge amount of noise about it. This is quite alien to the British farming psyche. Also, British farmers are innately suspicious of eachother and this is why farming co-operatives have almost without exception, ended in failure.. Also, farmers closely involved in the FMD epidemic were far too busy battoning down the hatches and living from day to day, trying to keep their stock isolated and, worse, dealing with the dreadful mindless bureaucracy, to consider political activism!

I fear that it is indeed inevitable that the British farmer 'will remain isolated and vulnerable' – in perpetuity – it is inherent in their nature!

Regards

Val
                        

Originally from: Farmtalking
                        
Hi Val!

I think a great deal of what you say is very accurate.

I've spoken to many vets who certainly had the same opinions as Peter Jinman and much of that is due to the limited amount of training they had with regard to viral diseases and of course the time at which they trained. Including those who trained quite recently, let alone the chance to refresh their knowledge.

Although, just like farmers. or anyone else like me, the info was available via the web. They either were familiar with the technology or not, and if they were, didn't have the time or inclination to find out.

FMD arrived early in the year when farmers and farm vets who weren't already coping with lambing in poor weather conditions, were about to do so and that, as always, is inevitably followed by a busy time of year, calving, silage, hay-making, harvests etc.

They hardly had time to spend searching for info they didn't know existed and those that were NFU members believed what their local reps told them, and who can blame them?

We tried to follow the French, (who operate Co-ordination Rurale with some success), by starting Hearts of Britain. Although interest in the idea was well received in many quarters and people realised it could give them a voice, it never really got off the ground in a big way, although Heart of Galloway is still going strong.

Nevertheless, we have to acknowledge that minority groups can and do have a voice and are listened to. They may not acknowledged as the providers of information or instigators of change but they can certainly claim some responsibility for it.

Even this message board passes information and influences change many times quite unwittingly to others. I've been surprised to realise that people who are not members of this board have knowledge of it's contents and info, no doubt because someone has forwarded a message to them or passed the info on in some way.

Farmers may always seem isolated, as you say that's the nature of the business but it doesn't mean that in the end things won't, or haven't started already, to change for the better. What we may think are small voices, are heard! Even through such bizarre places as this board!