RE: Defra''''s scrapie plan

Originally from: Farmtalking
                        
Hi Francis!

Here's a few answers to your message –

Author wrote:
Now, there's a misnomer if ever I wrote one ? A plan ? One that, as per usual, leads to eventual carnage. That is Defra's answer to everything remotely described as a zoonosis(i.e. it may be transmissable to man ).Now, I wonder why they do not come clean about PMWS in the pig herds, that has a suspicion(as yet unconfirmed) of being in that category and yet they refuse to make it a notifiable disease ! Is this because it is now so rampant that the compensation bill would be enormous ? So much for our marvellous Food Standards Agency.

JB – Yes you are right inasmuch as there seems to be an almightly 'muddle'!

I am suggesting that if we don't understand something we ask that it be explained.

I wonder how many of us have written to our MP's and 'asked' if the NSP is going to lead to 'eventual carnage' and why?

The same applies to your queries about PMWS. –

As regards trust, Jane. Trust has to be earned.

JB – So I understand. Doesn't the way to earn trust lie in a two-way exchange of honesty, openness and understanding? –

Would you say that ANY farmer or anyone who keeps animals trusts Defra ?

JB – Did I say that? I don't think so! –

Secondly, when trust has been lost, as it most certainly has,it cannot be regained, it has gone forever.

JB – I'm sorry to disagree with you but trust is only 'gone forever' if that is how we want it to be. –

If you were daft enough or still naive enough to invite Defra onto your land to test, check your stock, could they be trusted ?

Would some of us even trust any results of blood testing that they carried out, or that they had not falsified these ? Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when first we practise to deceive ?

JB – Quite! but do we want to maintain the tangle or unravel it? –

Basically, they are up the creek without a paddle, don't know what to do about it, and end up still digging the hole(to mix my metaphors completely). There is no doubt in a lot of our minds, that the SVS is a corrupt body and needs sorting before any progress can be made.

JB – I don't think the SVS is a 'corrupt body' but is underfunded, understaffed and lacks up to date training and it's these deficiencies which have led to incompetance. –

I think many vets are only just realising that they have been trussed up like an oven ready chicken (our sons would use another graphic way to describe it ). But, no, we cannot trust those who have proved themselves untrustworthy, not when so much is at stake.

JB – Did I ask you to do so? I don't think so! – What I do ask is that we try to forgive those who've destroyed our trust and talk to them in order to understand the problems from every angle and find the right way forward. –

Please.,do not forget that some actually took their own lives, as a result indirect or even, direct of these people and their policies.

JB. – Of course I do not and never will, forget. –

Where they leave us no hope, then we have nothing to lose by opposition.

JB. – Again I have to disagree with you. I think that to constantly 'oppose' is to maintain conflict and thereby we lose everything.

Hurt and angry though we may be don't we have to try to be 'constructive' to find the right way forward?

Best wishes and take care! – Jane

Originally from: coleen
                        
Dear Jane

So how do we go about being open and honest with them. Do we say 'here are our animals come and test them'? Knowing full well that they could do and say whatever they liked regarding any test results. What then? We could not protest – they would simply arrest us, whilst they destroyed the animals. So what is there to understand on our part – and as for honesty they forfeited that when they lied over fmd. I do not see how we can give them a second chance, not when animals are involved. You cannot bring them back to life once you have placed your faith and trust in DEFRA. I am sorry Jane but it is not worth the risk. It is for them to unravel the mess and lies. Why if they are to be given a second chance do they keep lying time and time again. Does not the condemned man always say he is 'sorry' before sentencing – how many go on to reoffend?

I do not think that they are trying to mend any bridges rather the opposite, but then lets face it they do not have to. They have the AHA to fall back on. We have nothing other then our wits and the knowledge that to openly invite them in would be foolhardy. This to me is not a game and second chances are all well and good when both parties stand on equal footing and both parties want to reach a mutual and friendly conclusion.

I simply ask this, if fmd and the way it was treated had been a genuine mistake would we not have had some answers and the word 'sorry' mentioned in some quarters. To do what they did to people and their animals was disgusting – they should be so ashamed. I would struggle to live with myself Jane if I had inflicted the pain and suffering some of them were quilty of. In some cases they acted little better then scum (sorry but no other word fits the crime).Only difference being the people who we normally attach that description to – would have served time for it.

They have prove that they are not out to destroy our animals first, and from were I sit this is not a view I see at the moment.

Coleen

Originally from: coleen
                        
Dear Jane

So how do we go about being open and honest with them. Do we say 'here are our animals come and test them'? Knowing full well that they could do and say whatever they liked regarding any test results. What then? We could not protest – they would simply arrest us, whilst they destroyed the animals. So what is there to understand on our part – and as for honesty they forfeited that when they lied over fmd. I do not see how we can give them a second chance, not when animals are involved. You cannot bring them back to life once you have placed your faith and trust in DEFRA. I am sorry Jane but it is not worth the risk. It is for them to unravel the mess and lies. Why if they are to be given a second chance do they keep lying time and time again. Does not the condemned man always say he is 'sorry' before sentencing – how many go on to reoffend?

I do not think that they are trying to mend any bridges rather the opposite, but then lets face it they do not have to. They have the AHA to fall back on. We have nothing other then our wits and the knowledge that to openly invite them in would be foolhardy. This to me is not a game and second chances are all well and good when both parties stand on equal footing and both parties want to reach a mutual and friendly conclusion.

I simply ask this, if fmd and the way it was treated had been a genuine mistake would we not have had some answers and the word 'sorry' mentioned in some quarters. To do what they did to people and their animals was disgusting – they should be so ashamed. I would struggle to live with myself Jane if I had inflicted the pain and suffering some of them were quilty of. In some cases they acted little better then scum (sorry but no other word fits the crime).Only difference being the people who we normally attach that description to – would have served time for it.

They have prove that they are not out to destroy our animals first, and from were I sit this is not a view I see at the moment.

Coleen

Originally from: Farmtalking
                        
Hi Francis and Coleen!

You have both very clearly stated that you cannot and will not 'trust' and I understand the reasons why.

You have also clearly stated that you want 'some sign of regret, remorse, admission, apology' and again I understand why and I would dearly like to receive the same.

I too am appalled at the defiance and arrogance of our Prime Minister and much of his Government and would agree that the arrongance is breathtaking.

But in view of the fact that they have amended the Animal Health Act and instigated the NSP and as far as we know their plans to control FMD, in the event of another outbreak, remain much the same as they were, what do we propose to do about it?

Are we to remain bemoaning our state to eachother and living in fear of the future, or are we really trying to do something change the our situation?

Each one of us has to decide for ourselves.

I can only make suggestions that I think might be helpful.

Others like Mary Marshall and Chris Stockdale are trying to change things by getting involved with DEFRA.

I know many of us can't spare the time to do that but we can all write to our MP, talk to our local NFU Chairman, our Vet and those farming friends whose 'noses wrinkle and eyes are averted lest they give away what is truly felt'. Perhaps if they all told Govt what is 'truly felt' it would start to take effect.

I just try to encourage others and promoted Hearts of Britain in order to give farmers a voice for change. Some like Heart of Galloway have adopted the idea with some success while others have chosen not to.

As I've said, each of us must chose our own path but I don't intend to abandon mine!

Author wrote:
Dear Coleen, I could not have put it better myself. First step, Jane, is some sign of regret, remorse, admission, apology ??None of these things are forthcoming. The image of Tony Blair,defiant, unapologetic yesterday to me epitomises this stance. He "would do it all again, wouldn't change a thing " ! Its exactly the same attitude, that they did nothing wrong and, therefore, have nothing to apologise for. The arrogance is quite simply, breathtaking. isn't it ? In the instance of the management, excuse me, mismanagement, of the FMD epidemic, it is hard to see that there are not victims and those guilty of inflicting all the unecessary pain , grief and anguish upon them. More often than not, you can see faults on both sides, we say, its half a dozen of one and six of the other. Not in this case. You might just as well say that the Jewish people were guilty of being Jews and that Hitler and the Nazis had no choice. I am for turning the other cheek, but first there has to be a reckoning as a platform to begin to establish a new relationship, and, as Coleen says, its not there.Margaret Beckett said there were lessons to be learnt, you would have to agree with that ? The one we learnt, the hard way, is that we cannot trust these people as far as we could throw them ! What have they learnt ? That they need new legal powers to do what they did illegaly last time ? I understand, and I do not know if it is true or not, but it would not surprise me at all, that the simulated FMD exercise in Scotland was conducted as per 2001, no new technology, no new ideas. Do any of us know if this is a fact or not , anyone out there to give us a glimmer of hope that something, anything, constructive has been learnt ? Still we wait, Jane, and, no, sorry, we cannot bring ourselves to trust. That is truly why the vets, especially the ones paid for by the state are having such dificulty in operating. A certain lack of cooperation is endemic, nobody talks about it but, if you mention Defra or the vets, noses wrinkle and eyes are averted le

st they give away what is truly felt.

Originally from: Burkie
                        
Dear Frances and Friends: I just can't sit here and not share with you some rather important available information.

To exert myself into your woes isn't really fair. I have always been critical of the cull....in addition, I have been critical of your vets and your DEFRA/MAFF people.

What I am so sad to share with you is the fact that I think you've been "had" by some others, too....and these people are in very high places within the government of your country.

Here is a website I want you to take a look at, please.

I'll let you draw your own conclusions. It has to do with who supplies the meat you eat....where it comes from....and more.

This is just a start....call it another "Hint" to find the answers you are seeking, today.

Here the website address:

http://www.angliss-international.com/flash/products.htm

I would strongly urge you to take all the time you need to note any other names associated with this firm....but this map, graphically starts the process.

Best Regards from Kansas.

Burkie

Author wrote:
Dear Coleen, I could not have put it better myself. First step, Jane, is some sign of regret, remorse, admission, apology ??None of these things are forthcoming. The image of Tony Blair,defiant, unapologetic yesterday to me epitomises this stance. He "would do it all again, wouldn't change a thing " ! Its exactly the same attitude, that they did nothing wrong and, therefore, have nothing to apologise for. The arrogance is quite simply, breathtaking. isn't it ? In the instance of the management, excuse me, mismanagement, of the FMD epidemic, it is hard to see that there are not victims and those guilty of inflicting all the unecessary pain , grief and anguish upon them. More often than not, you can see faults on both sides, we say, its half a dozen of one and six of the other. Not in this case. You might just as well say that the Jewish people were guilty of being Jews and that Hitler and the Nazis had no choice. I am for turning the other cheek, but first there has to be a reckoning as a platform to begin to establish a new relationship, and, as Coleen says, its not there.Margaret Beckett said there were lessons to be learnt, you would have to agree with that ? The one we learnt, the hard way, is that we cannot trust these people as far as we could throw them ! What have they learnt ? That they need new legal powers to do what they did illegaly last time ? I understand, and I do not know if it is true or not, but it would not surprise me at all, that the simulated FMD exercise in Scotland was conducted as per 2001, no new technology, no new ideas. Do any of us know if this is a fact or not , anyone out there to give us a glimmer of hope that something, anything, constructive has been learnt ? Still we wait, Jane, and, no, sorry, we cannot bring ourselves to trust. That is truly why the vets, especially the ones paid for by the state are having such dificulty in operating. A certain lack of cooperation is endemic, nobody talks about it but, if you mention Defra or the vets, noses wrinkle and eyes are averted le

st they give away what is truly felt.

Originally from: coleen
                        
I think it is very unfair for you to say 'that we are just sitting and moaning' Jane. Many of us are not in the position of being able to do what Chris and Mary are doing. Brilliant to both of them for what they are achieving and if they think working with DEFRA is the answer then that is their choice. Please do not say the rest of us are doing nothing. 'Nothing' is to not be aware and to be ignorant of the fact of what this Government are going – in my view. I could say to you is working with them worth the paper it is written on?. Has this Gov of ours taken any notice of what was said by the EU and all other reports since fmd. We all agree we have a leader who sets himself up there – and sees everything he is doing as some form of 'divine' right! And who at the end of the day – calls the shots over what DEFRA do and say? Perhaps, and only perhaps things might be different with a another PM. I would not bet on it though.

I am not looking for space age revolutionary technology. Vaccination and the right to look after our animals without being hounded and arrested for doing so would do me nicely. Not much to ask for is it? After all man has been doing that for centuries. Why has owning livestock suddenly been made to feel a crime?

I have never lost the fight Jane. But I am fighting from the side of a few pet sheep – and we are listened to even less then the people who make a living from farming. I fight for everything I believe in. I am NOT a quitter. Perhaps if I was life might be less hurtful and more pleasant. I can certainly see the advantage of turning a blind eye. I can see no harm in writing our feelings if nothing else it hopefully might let other people read they are not along in their views. I draw comfort from the knowledge that Francis feels as I do. I feel less isolated and 'not out of touch with my views'. You more then anyone will know that living rurally Jane can be very lonely, and these are worrying times. Many people are keeping their heads down and their thoughts to themselves.

I have not lost the fight, and I would love to be able to put the past behind me life is too short for bitterness.

Coleen