Article on FMD Vaccine.
Originally from: chris stockdale
Dear Jane,
I am forwarding this to you as I have received it from a couple of sources to-day and debate is firing up in several channels without a central board, perhaps compounded by Mary's holiday.
Regards, Chris.
<A HREF="http://icwales.icnetwork.co.uk/0100news/0200wales/content_objectid=13285598_method=full_siteid=50082_headline=-Two-years-on--foot-and-mouth-breakthrough-name_page.html">http://icwales.icnetwork.co.uk/0100news/0200wales/content_objectid=13285598_me thod=full_siteid=50082_headline=-Two-years-on--foot-and-mouth-breakthrough-nam
e_page.html</A>
Two years on, foot-and-mouth breakthrough
Steve Dube, The Western Mail
GERMAN scientists have made a breakthrough that could avoid the slaughter of thousands of cattle in the event of another epidemic of foot-and-mouth disease.
Exactly two years to the day since the last reported case of FMD in Wales, scientists at the University of T bingen have announced a cheap new test that can tell the difference between cattle infected with foot-and-mouth disease from those vaccinated against it.
The inability to tell the two groups apart was one of the main arguments against vaccination during the 2001 epidemic and the test could allow future outbreaks to be tackled by immunisation rather than by culling, said Dr Armin Saalm ller of the university.
Similar tests already exist, but Dr Saalm ller's is quicker to use, costs one-fifth the price of its rivals and uses synthetic reagents where others use biological components.
The European Union has proposed a shift towards local culls and vaccination in the event of a new epidemic.
News of the test breakthrough brought a mixed reaction. David Paton of the Institute for Animal Health at Pirbright, thought it had great potential, b ut FMD epidemiologist Mark Woolhouse of the University of Edinburgh said the test was not specific or sensitive enough.
National Farmers' Union Cymru spokeswoman Leigh Roberts
said, "The major question is whether retailers and consumers would accept meat from vaccinated animals."
The union would also be concerned at the cost of the bureaucracy that would inevitably accompany tests and vaccination.
Originally from: Burkie
Dear Chris: Was reviewing old messages again last night...From August 2001 – November 2001...one thing was always consistent.....the University of Edinburgh was always opposed to vaccination policy.....which has always made me wonder "Why?"
I reached two conclusions:
- Neil Ferguson was associated with the University of Edinburgh
- There was so much more money to be had by insisting on a cull policy, and rather than oppose that policy, it was condoned by University of Edinburg officials
What has never been made clear is what monies and amounts of money were ever paid out, and in addition, who is still owed money (compensation for animals) to this day?
I have found no record of any accounting of all these supposed billions of pounds supposedly paid out. Have you?
All the Best,
Burkie in Kansas
and to this day , they have maintained that stand of opposition to a Common Sense vaccination policy. Author wrote:
Originally from: chris stockdale
Dear all,
I have e-mailed all of DEFRA's FMD Stakeholder Communications Group with the mesage (in Italics) below, with the FMD Vaccine article attached and NFU comment coloured in red . We meet in early September. I do have a few ideas how to break this cycle, but would love to hear from any one else who has any suggestions. Many of the staff and most or all of the Stakeholders in the above-named group are extremely sympathetic to this aim, so suggestions please.
We will need to find answers to the problem raised by the large exporting companies, like Cadburys and Nestle, that even if they know that there is no problem arising from vaccinated product, what is to stop one of their competitors abroad using any perceptible sleight for trade advantage purposes ; even assuming that we get the UK sorted [big 'if' but hopefully do-able], it will all come unstuck again on this. Please rack yer brains, as this is the biggest stumbling block left.
Contributions on how to sort the UK situation also welcomed, bearing in mind that many producers, processors, and retailers do not wish to dwell over-much on existing vaccine-use, so emphasising comparative safety by reference to something perhaps best rapidly glossed over is difficult – hard to believe the NFU would be so stupid as to play with fire in a powder-keg.
I think it is also true to say that there are no serious plans to vaccinate sheep next time; John Thorley (National Sheep Association) is implacably opposed to vaccination – proposes instead that sheep should be left up the mountain/ pushed to outlying ground, and then blood tested later. DEFRA seem to be in agreement with this, which may mean what it says, or it may just mean that John is retiring soon, say anything, then kill next time as sheep producers do not want vacc -- there is not a lot can be done with a vaccinated ovine carcass other than cook it quickly, so I have suggested mobile field kitchens to produce large-scale product for HM Prisons, Armed Forces, Schools, Welfare and charity applications etc -- so far no notice taken, will raise it again (obviously purchase and acquisition contracts would need a 'national emergency' override clause).
Dear all,
please find attached a recent Press cutting of central relevance to our task.
The circularity (chicken / egg) could be endless – producers pre-empting non-existing baseless consumer fears and possibly thereby generating the very same. How are we going to break the cycle?
Could I suggest that we bring proposals for solving this most knotty of problems to our next meeting. I have a few ideas, some almost ready for Press release.
Sincerely,
Chris (Stockdale).
Originally from: Pat Gardiner
Good Morning Chris
You seem to have two separate problems.
Persuading major buyers in the UK and
Reassuring the consumer in the event of “foreign” competitors attempting to take advantage.
To deal with industry in the UK, you appear to need to tackle the reassurance question before it arises.
The reality is that the heavyweights in the UK, do not need reassurance. They know perfectly well that competition-knocking copy always backfires on the instigator.
The real problem is, and always has been, the absolutely appalling business illiterates that gather around and control most farmers’ marketing and representative organisations. They are stupid enough to try to use knocking copy against “foreign” competition, and assume that foreign businesses are daft enough to do the same.
They use “knocking-copy” to give the appearance to their membership of doing something useful, despite the damage it does to British farming
The simple truth is if you attack the other guy’s unicorn meat, you attack the consumer’s perception of your own. It backfires. All capable marketing people know that well and don’t do it.
Faced with the problem, I would recruit a top businessman with public credibility for capable marketing and let him take on the throw-outs and amateurs of the farming marketing world head-on.
One of the supermarkets would probably suggest someone. Some are very tired of rabble-rousing, unjustified abuse and pickets at their distribution depots. Some of their retired executives might well relish having a hand in the reform of animal health. They would also understand perfectly the mind-set of Nestle.
Why should the devil have all the best tunes?
The people who represent British farms in the business world are a laughing stock elsewhere. British big business will not take much persuasion to ignore them.
You just have to shoulder the “has beens” and marketing wannabes of British farming out of the way.
Well, you did ask.
Originally from: Farmtalking
Hi Pat!
I seem to remember that Nestle said they had no problem with vaccinated milk providing all milk was from vaccinated cattle?
It may well be in Prof. Fenton's corespondance – I must read that link again! – I think it also may have come from another source, maybe Bryn?
I know that certainly by late spring 2001 I didn't think nestle was a problem i this regard.
Best wishes – Jane
Originally from: Farmtalking
Hi Chris!
I find it utterly amazing that the questions concerning vaccinated meat and the efficacy of FMD vaccine still remain. I guess there are none so blind as those who will not see!
It is well known that at a meeting at Chequers in April 2001 it was established that the supermarkets had no problem with FMD vaccinated products. See the reports in the following link –
http://farmtalking.com/eu fenton docs.htm
The EU Control Directive published in 1985 as designed to protect FMD free status but did allow for emergency vaccination!
http://farmtalking.com/eu directive control.html
From: ...
Originally from the following you will note that after Uruguay eradicated their outbreak via vaccination in 2001 the EU gave permission for them to resume exports of their vaccinated meat and we have consumed it ever since!
http://farmtalking.com/news uruguay.htm
It is also well known that at the present time there are some 32 vaccines regularly used by farmers to protect their stock from disease.
It is also well known that farmers in the UK and elsewhere, are more than capable and frequently do, vaccinate their stock themselves.
See the report from the Brazilian rancher towards the end of the following link –
http://farmtalking.com/vax brazil rancher.htm
The meat produced from these vaccinated animals is consumed by the population daily and we were made aware by Bryn early in 2001 of the many thousands of tons of Brazilian FMD vaccinated meat the UK imports every year.
As for the efficacy of FMD vaccination in sheep please see the following link –
http://farmtalking.com/art science watkins.html
Perhaps if copies of all the above were given to each of the stakeholders it would help to put their minds at rest with regard to vaccination?
I do hope so!
I think the biggest stumbling block to resolving all this is nothing more serious than simple pride. It is so hard for all of us, once a mistake has been made, to admit we were wrong, apologise, and then do everything we can to put it right.
The tendency to think it’s safer to stick to our previously held beliefs, however misguided they were, remains paramount. If only it could be understood that an admission guilt and a concerted effort to change things for the better brings respect and admiration.
Nothing can bring back the slaughtered animals, lost farms or taxpayer’s money, let alone mend the broken hearts resultant from 2001 but the adoption of a vaccination policy would go a very long way to restore faith and elicit forgiveness.
This is the 21st Century! All the time we continue to have a slaughter policy in preference to a very efficacious vaccine, we not only look stupid but mean and cruel as well! Especially while other countries vaccinate and export their meat to us!
With the increased incidences of FMD all over the world we know the adoption of a vaccination policy with an 85% take up eradicates the disease and we should go for it!
Best wishes and good luck! – Jane
Originally from: coleen
http://www.sovereignty.org.uk/features/footnmouth/nestle.html
Article from the Guardian Sept 2001
Coleen
Originally from: chris stockdale
Pat,
The two-fold problem is
a) persuading uk producers not to generate scares, and consumers that there is nothing to be scared of, and
b) finding a mechanism that will disable or deal with the danger to the large exporting companies arising from their overseas consumers potential perception of the risk.
This latter basically entails reassuring every global citizen of the safety of UK vaccinated product – not feasible. How are we going to go about this? I have discussed this with a rep of the Dairy Industries Association, and he himself ruled out compensation for lost markets as impractical – too open to abuse, an open cheque.
What about some sort of co-responsibility levy, imposed as a percentage on all who trade in animal products, to set up a fund to deal with this; perhaps after a certain amount of comp. companies could take out insurance, find other markets, produce less, store more, adapt or take a minor loss for a time. After all, only the farmer, vet and a few others actually deal with the living creatures; to everyone further up the food chain after the abbatoir, meat, sausage, bacon, milk, custard, quiche etc. is just a product open to full market forces like everything else – nature red in tooth and claw, if you can't stand the heat get out of the kitchen, etc, etc.
I have the choice to leave the kitchen or not , our domesticated livestock don't, nor can they speak, vote or petition. I believe that it is incumbent on us to act in a responsible manner towards them. Perhaps the RSPCA could promote such a levy, of say 0.5% – enough to accumalate funds without wreaking havoc in the economy. I know farmers are supported in many ways, but the consuming public cannot wash their hands of what happens in their name, determined by their elected representatives to put their food on their plate- the consumer, via a purchasing decision, is responsible for the method of production (obviously the poor have less choice).
I think your idea of asking a top businessman to front a campaign could be useful; I suspect that at some point he/she would also need support from the 'ethical sector' -CIWF, Soil Association, BDAA, an omniverous rock-star or two, Prince Charles (ideally), not to mention a galaxy of politicians, chefs, MEP;s, etc to raise the profile. This would have to be presented as a difficult technical exercise opted for because ethically (and scientifically) progressive (as well as hopefully cheaper, cleaner, quicker, less damaging to all and sundry).
Actual work calls, must go,
Chris.
Originally from: coleen
http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=cache:pcwWNv0BeMkJ:www.warmwell.com/closeupoct6.htm+nestle+fmd+vaccinated+milk&hl=en&ie=UTF-8
Oct 2001 from Warmwell, in which is states 'there was a feeling that the industry was on side' which included Nestle.
Coleen
Originally from: coleen
Why cannot ads in papers and TV tell the real truth and explain to the public what they are already eating, when they buy produce brought into the UK from other Countries. I think there is nothng that angers the British public most then , being duped by other Countries. I realise that we will never stop the sale of imported goods, but at least let the consumer know the truth, and they can make their own minds up.
I think Bryn raised an example of meat coming in from Brazil and what that has been treated with. I think we are assuming that because we know, then everyone knows what they are eating. The supermarkets are not going to be spilling the beans, not in their interest, neither is it in the Governments. A BRITISH FOOD GURU is needed. In spite of all the food scares here in the UK recently, I still think many people do feel that British is best. Food scares come and go. People have not stopped smoking and look what that does to you, and that's a fact not scare mongering.
Not much help I realise, just some thoughts from Cumbria.
Coleen
Originally from: Farmtalking
Hi Coleen!
I rather think the facts of the matter are the that the public – which includes us! – rarely think, if ever, about the possibility they are eating vaccinated meat.
Of course, some of us, especially those who live or work on a farm and/or in the country, realise that famers vaccinate their animals against various diseases. We are pleased they do and that their stock is protected; in just the same way as we chose to vaccinate our pets or children. We consider it the responsible thing to do for the welfare of both.
The proposal that 'the public won't eat vaccinated meat' put forward by the 'anti-vaccination/pro FMD free status' brigade is a really a red-herring. The British public have consumed vaccinated meat, including meat vaccinated against FMD, for many years. As Bryn pointed out years ago, any tin of corned beef from Brazil is FMD vaccinated meat!
I'm none too sure we need a 'Food Guru' in fact, I rather thought we had one in the form of Sir John Krebs of the Food Standards Agency!
I know they are working on 'food labelling' among other things and in many ways I'm all in favour of that. I would certainly like to know if I am buying 'GM free' foods, although for how long the foods that are will actually remain so is just a matter of conjecture I fear!
If meats were labelled too, with the country of origin and the method of rearing, (ie: organic, feed lots or intensive etc) and also stated the vaccines used to prevent disease and/or antibiotics used, including date and time, to cure an infection in that particular animal, plus the growth promoters if applicable, that would be fine too but might lead to rather a lengthy label and a whole lot of extra work for the farmer!
On the whole I think it's a nonsence and I'm none to sure the average housewife would bother to read it or even care! There is no doubt that once food arrives on the supermarket shelf, the public believe it's fit to eat and in many ways that's exactly how it should be.
IMO what is really disgraceful is that at present we prefer to slaughter stock infected with FMD and treat their healthy neighbours in the same way, rather than vaccinate to prevent it.
Thanks for the link to Mary's info which helps to clear up the Nestle 'spoof'!
Best wishes – Jane
Originally from: Farmtalking
Hi Coleen!
I rather think the facts of the matter are the that the public – which includes us! – rarely think, if ever, about the possibility they are eating vaccinated meat.
Of course, some of us, especially those who live or work on a farm and/or in the country, realise that famers vaccinate their animals against various diseases. We are pleased they do and that their stock is protected; in just the same way as we chose to vaccinate our pets or children. We consider it the responsible thing to do for the welfare of both.
The proposal that 'the public won't eat vaccinated meat' put forward by the 'anti-vaccination/pro FMD free status' brigade is a really a red-herring. The British public have consumed vaccinated meat, including meat vaccinated against FMD, for many years. As Bryn pointed out years ago, any tin of corned beef from Brazil is FMD vaccinated meat!
I'm none too sure we need a 'Food Guru' in fact, I rather thought we had one in the form of Sir John Krebs of the Food Standards Agency!
I know they are working on 'food labelling' among other things and in many ways I'm all in favour of that. I would certainly like to know if I am buying 'GM free' foods, although for how long the foods that are will actually remain so is just a matter of conjecture I fear!
If meats were labelled too, with the country of origin and the method of rearing, (ie: organic, feed lots or intensive etc) and also stated the vaccines used to prevent disease and/or antibiotics used, including date and time, to cure an infection in that particular animal, plus the growth promoters if applicable, that would be fine too but might lead to rather a lengthy label and a whole lot of extra work for the farmer!
On the whole I think it's a nonsence and I'm none to sure the average housewife would bother to read it or even care! There is no doubt that once food arrives on the supermarket shelf, the public believe it's fit to eat and in many ways that's exactly how it should be.
IMO what is really disgraceful is that at present we prefer to slaughter stock infected with FMD and treat their healthy neighbours in the same way, rather than vaccinate to prevent it.
Thanks for the link to Mary's info which helps to clear up the Nestle 'spoof'!
Best wishes – Jane
Originally from: coleen
Dear Jane
Then if the public hardly 'think' about what they eat, why is there a problem? I do not disagree with what you write Jane. I just wonder where the problem is? In fact I was listening to a programme asking young children 'where does milk come from'? Many had no idea. To be truthful I cannot remember if at that age, (and a City kid) if I would have known the answer.
At the end of the day, unless you have all the time in World, or grow and produce everything you and your family eat, you have little choice other then to trust what is on the shelf. I just think it would be a fairer playing field if the facts were known, then those who do make educated choices could continue doing so. Labelling would be a step in the right direction, but do you think they will go as far as to tell us what Country the milk in a certain yoghurt is from, or in fact if the milk we are drinking comes from the UK
I and the people on this group know that the vaccination issue is a 'red herring'. But there really is confusion within the public on this matter. I was posting on another board, regarding this matter. There is a view that it is was the farmers who did not want and still do not want vaccination, and there is nothing being said to counteract this view. The farmers will be blamed again, if heaven forbid, we go down that same road. They still have NO real union to represent them do they?
In terms of a food guru, I was rather thinking in terms of someone who could promote it and sell it more to the media and public. A more familiar face to the public. After all celebrity status is everything today Jane, so they say. (I find it sad, but who am I)? We apparently cannot get enough of them. So why not use one to promote British Food. Aim at the younger market, the shoppers of tomorrow. The one's with the money so they would have us believe.
Coleen
Originally from: Bill
"Vaccinate to prevent it" by all means but the silly talk seems to be predominately about vaccinating our way out of an epidemic.
It simply does not, cannot, work. An animal has to be infected for at least 5 days before there is sufficient antibody to give a positive test. The difficulty, as always, is you never have much of an idea how far the disease has travelled.
Hence the almighty cock-up by MAFF/DEFRA in 2001, and their policy of indiscriminate slaughter of everything for miles around.
Bill.
Originally from: Burkie
Dear Chris:
I am going to politely ask you to reply to these questions:
- How much money was paid to whom for your cull? (Where is the record of payments made? 2. Who got paid what?
- Who is still owed money that has never been paid?
- Was this money paid to the U.K by the EU or was it all British taxpayers money?
Huh?
Since you are appear to be a part of DEFRA now....where does one go to obtain this information? Or can't you answer a direct question from a concerned American?
By the way, everybody on this thread now....there is a tremendous amount of information that has already been posted on the original FMDNew@smartgroups website on or about 10/20/01 plus or minus a few days. Not only does it relate directly to this posting...but also centers around the Great Big Animal Brain Screw-up of the Century relative to the Unscientific Science about Cow Brains/Sheep Brains and BSE/Scrapie....but also revelations and posts made by myself and others relative to vaccination of livestock and subsequent slaughter practices in other countries like Brazil, Argentina and Uruguay.
What "gets me" is that this is all ground that's been covered before....and yet, you folks still haven't been able to get some of your own people to recognize the facts that other countries are so far ahead of you , it's not even funny.
To have you host Pirbright and Porton Down as the "world expert" organizations regarding FMD research is nuts. Argentina, Brazil and Uruguay have made your Pirbright the laughing stock of the animal disease world.
Burkie in Kansas
Originally from: chris stockdale
Dear Burkie,
I received about £50,000 in total for slaughtered stock, including a sum for small amounts of destroyed feed, straw, old wooden sheds, firewood, fertiliser, damaged or destroyed equipment and to make good damage myself. I do not have the exact figure to hand nor do I wish to quote it as some parts are ongoing; the sum would have been considerably larger had I not successfully kept some outlying stock alive, as, being the youngest and of breeding age, they were classed as the most valuable. I would also have increased the sum had I worked on the clean -up either at home, elsewhere, or both.
I do not know how much the Valuer received, or the slaughter-crew or marksman, nor how to attribute costs for the Ministry vets ot Army assistants.
Most of the people owed money are the individuals or firms who jumped in to capitalise on the clean-up. Without wishing to cast aspersions, some of these were not frightfully nice people, and quite how they could have become owed so much in such a short time unless they were milking the tax-payer for all they could, beats me- sob stories such as ' I am still owed £12,000,000 for my last months work' do not receive universal sympathy.
I have a record of payments. None is outstanding, the cheque came from the Bank of England as I recall, certainly nothing EU or strange in any way.
I do not know what the costs of the clean-up were, we had an economy-minded supervisor as she was an AI inseminator working for her normal pay (about £6/hour at a guess)and it pissed her off to see the tax-payers money wasted, so not a lot of luxuries here. I suspect some of the labour -force dragged the job out because they liked working here (I took that as a compliment).
The EU is going to pay a sum, I believe about about 40% but it could be higher, towards UK costs. The remainder is for ther UK to find.
Am I part of DEFRA? Am I heck! No, the work I am doing with DEFRA is completely voluntary and unpaid; the Organisation (Charity) which I represent pays my travel costs to London and that is it, the rest comes out of my own increasingly threadbare pocket . Furthermore, the new head of this 'Communications Group' sees our role as being completed by Christmas. Hence the pressure now – if I am going to report to the Organic sector and the national farming Press that we have a credible and viable vaccination policy in place, I want to be sure that this is correct because I neither want to report an untruth nor lend weight to an ill-thought out and therefore potentially dangerous policy. I am presently compiling the list of required or essential criteria – will mail it when complete for comment.
Please tell me Burkie, or anyone else who knows – I only got a computer in the autumn of 2001; how many websites/ smart group on FMD are there, and am I missing them? I only read warmwell, and the Farmtalking group; please let me know if other groups are still active, because I would like to read their output and input myself. Goodness knows, there are few enough of us left still at this, it needs all of our input to get anywhere.
I suspect what made Pirbright the laughing stock is political interference; I agree that they were slow off the mark at the abbattoir. I think most of the blame for the rest actually falls to the Chief Veterinary Officer and the State Veterinary Service, (themselves struggling under continual cuts in funding, permanently understaffed , undervalued and underappreciated), rather than Pirbright – you know, the usual agricultural situation now arising as consumers take their varied and luxurious food supply pretty much for granted. As Paul Kitching said, if they (the Government) had retained confidence in their vets, allowed the Movement restrictions to take effect and disease show where present, conventional techniques would have achieved the same end with a lot less bloodshed. The massively ott slaughter arose from the Contiguous and 3k culls, inspired by Tony's fear that agriculture was going to cost him the Election – his Holy Grail, the Second Term, the one where it would all come right after the Financial strictures of the first term – and listened to the advice of Anderson and his Modelling crew. Porton Down are nothing to do with it.
Regards, Chris.
Originally from: Burkie
Dear Chris: What an excellent reply to my comments....which were not intended to personally pry into your own situation, but you have enlightened me very well...and promptly, too, I might hasten to add.
I am at a slight disadvantage at the present time, because there was such an enormous volume of mail being traded and sent to those of us that participated in the FMDNEW Smartgroups forum from whenever we began our participation (for me, in April 2001) until the present time. That said, I lost alot of the original posts I made and received, due to changes in computers, etc....but still have many of the posts that were made from the first of August, 2001, until the end of 2001. I just went thru a bunch of them the past couple of nights....and I've got to tell you, there were some really outstanding bits of information that were shared by members of that group, throughout that time period, which, if you recall, included 911 tragedy, anthrax attacks in the States, and your tail end of FMD, and the Sheep/Cattle Brain fiasco, as well as the initiation and passage of your Animal Health Bill.
My problem now, is that I am unable to access these on my own computer from the current remote computer I am using right now, so can't just forward some of these to you.....but several were really outstanding posts made by certain contributors, like those made by Bryn Wayt on or about the 20th of November....and Dot Boag, and Denise Burgess and Ley, and Val Sinclair.
I wish I could share these with you, now....as they provide alot of additional insight as to what was taking place at that time, and to me, are more valuable bits of information, today, than they were, even at that time.
What I can't quite figure out, is that with all the press and media attention to FMD in the U.K......why there has never been a complete audit, public information, of the amounts paid out, to whom, when, and where that money was actually coming from.
Specially relative to Scottish Executive payments. There was alot of commentary in the middle of November, 2001, with regards to failure of compensation that was to be paid producers, but had not come thru at that time.
If I have time, I will jump on the FMD Smartgroups archives, do a little digging and still if some of those posts are still there.....will let you know what I find out in a following reply.
Thanks again for your very insightful explanation. It clears up alot of things I was puzzled about.
All the Best,
Burkie in Kansas
Originally from: Burkie
Dear Chris: Ok, it is possible to access the archives on the Foot and Mouth Latest pages of Smartgroups. It's just like the one here on Farmtalking, except it has the posts made by lots of other people, who have never been signed up here on Farmtalking.
So to see some of those old postings...here's what you have to do (I think!):
Sign up on the FMDNEW or Foot and Mouth Latest Smartgroups group.
There are now some 31,000+ messages made on this site.
Scroll till you get the search window.
Then type in the date you are interested in...or the name of the person you want to see posts from or references made to.
I just did a "quickie" search and typed in the date format for
"20 November 2001" and it brought out the posts that I mentioned in my earlier post to you, today.
Just play with the search tools and you'll find a wealth of information on this site....which you might find very useful in your Quest right now.
Hope this helps you.
All the Best,
Burkie in Kansas