Re: Political Correctness Spreads Diseases.

Originally from: chris stockdale
                        
Absolutely! The pathetically slow and miniscule response to the importation of illegal meats, especially bush meat but also high FMD-risk material is very telling. Any one of us could have written and printed off a few thousand A4 notices to stick up at ports and airports to at least raise consciousness about the issue, at a cost of about a tenner.
 Tke fact that Tony's crew haven't even bothered to do that suggests to me that they know perfectly well the cause of the 2001 epidemic and it wasn't from illegal imports.I mean, if your new car got nicked and the insurance refused to pay out because you'd left the keys in the ignition would you buy another new car and do it again? Maybe if you were very wealthy and didn't care, but we are not very rich and it is our 'money' we are talking about, so what sort of stewardship is that? Why is 'Prudence' Brown not doing more? Yours sadly, Chris.
                        

Originally from: Bill
                        
Whether you believe FMD can, or cannot, be transmitted in meat is really irrelevant. Our Labour Government sees FMD as problem for the farming community and let's face it, they hate the farming community.

Blair and Co. should perhaps be reminded that, irrespective of FMD, illegal meat imports are a major Public Health hazard.

For example illegal "bush meat" from African countries can carry a number of serious diseases. The trade in "bush meat" is largely overlooked by H.M. Customs and Excise who are usually thin on the ground when overnight flights from Africa arrive early morning at Heathrow.

The Blair "rent-a-scientists" seem to have forgotten that during the 1970's a particularly dangerous virus jumped the species gap from monkeys to man. Originally known as Lymphocyte-Associated Virus (LAV) it caused a disease we now know as AIDS and was first identified in the homosexual population of New York.

The politically correct thought the name "LAV" disease might cause offence to the homosexual community (George Michael fans will no doubt understand). The virus was therefore re-named Human Immunodeficiency Virus (H.I.V.)

With a few strokes of the bureaucratic pen a monkey disease became a human disease. H.I.V. is no longer associated with the handling and consumption of "bush meat" which my Zimbabwean friends tell me is readily available "under the counter" in South London.

You will not be surprised to learn that AIDS persists as a major Public Health problem in this once great country.

Bill.
                        

Originally from: Pat Gardiner
                        
Actually, although I'm sure Chis had his tongue in cheek, he is correct.

You cannot completely stop illegal imports, especially with paggenger traffic. In fact, you would have to spend a dissproportionate sum of money and inconvenience many innocent people to have any effect on the levels. That is an expert opinion gained from a lifetime dealing with imports at our borders.

The assessment of the governments reaction is therefore correct and they are right in not wasting taxpayer's time and money on nonsense promulgated by people who ought to know better. (not you – the NFU and allies)

Personally, I doubt the danger of illegal imports carried by passengers anyway. I've never seen any convincing evidence of risk and have seen much more likely sources spun out of existance. That is an inexpert opinion. <big grin>

Regards
Pat Gardiner

Originally from: Bill
                        
Pat,

The provision of sniffer dogs at ports of entry does not seem to be a problem in Australia, Canada and the U.S.A. There would of course be the additional benefit of catching a few drug smugglers (maybe our drug promoting government wouldn't want that).

Six overnight 747's arrive from Johannesburg early every morning at Heathrow and sometimes there isn't a Customs Officer to be seen!

Many of the passengers will have travelled from countries such as Botswana, Mocambique, Zimbabwe and Zambia. They pass through Jo'burg as International Transfers and are therefore not checked by South African Customs.

With nobody to stop them at Heathrow it's no wonder the trade in bush meat thrives!

Bill.
                        

Originally from: Pat Gardiner
                        
Hello Bill

No, I’m not arguing against the use of sniffer dogs at border controls, although I perhaps could, I’m arguing about their effectiveness in respect of FMD and, indeed, CSF.

Without going into details, we are quite properly misled about how customs do catch smugglers. One of the features of all anti-smuggling activities is the necessity of misleading the smugglers about the exact nature of detection techniques.

You should not read too much into the visibility or invisibility of HMC&E at any given point.

I’m no scientist, but I’m told that bush meat is mainly from species that do not carry FMD and CSF. There is no evidence that any meat arriving at Heathrow is infected, or that it reaches our farms or that any smuggled meat has ever caused an out-break anywhere.

There is something else too….a fault in the logic that we can all share. You read many articles along the following lines:

“ X quantity of illegal meat imports are passing through X airport every week, undetected.”

Anyone who has ever worked in the field has a quiet chuckle at this. If they are undetected, how do they know?

Such stories are almost always spin, usually from someone seeking an increase in their budget or, much more sinisterly, a good reason for pointing the finger elsewhere.

We do know, beyond any shadow of doubt, that MAFF-Defra lied about imported African meat passing though Newcastle-on -Tyne to Chinese Restaurants. I was the man that blew the whistle on them. Two Cabinet Ministers had to apologise, one twice. Most of the details of this event are well known. I’ve published them many times and won’t bore you all again.

You will find that every discussion on illegal imports always strays quickly from farm disease to other matters, which whilst important are irrelevant.

I hope this helps put the matter into perspective.

Regards Pat Gardiner

Originally from: Bill
                        
Pat,

Many thanks for your posting. I am not suggesting the odd pack of Biltong from Botswana is going to start an epidemic, I am talking commercial quantities.

My informants are "reliable sources", Zimbabweans living in London.

Southern Africans buy their tickets a lot cheaper than we do (about 200 quid return) and can go home with up to a 1000 quid. That's two year's wages to a lot of people where they come from!

There is minimal risk. You can probably better tell me, what would happen if they were caught? Carrying meat has got to be a lot less risky than carrying drugs.

The trouble is they are probably not just carrying meat in viable quantity. There could also be viable quantities of acid stable virus such as H.I.V., and bacteria such as Tuberculosis. (FMD is not acid stable but will survive in bone and offal)

Tuberculosis is a big problem in African wildlife generally and H.I.V. is thought to have originated by mutation of a lentivirus peculiar to primates. The conspiracy theorists will say the mutation happened in a laboratory but wherever the virus came from it exists in monkeys and mankind.

Commercial quantities of imports have been proven to cause epidemics. The 1967/68 FMD epidemic was started (or at least beyond reasonable doubt triggered) by a consignment of 770 frozen lamb carcasses from Establishment 1408 in Argentina.

Please do not get stuck in the rut of assuming it's just animal diseases that can be imported. To be quite frank the Government are not the slightest bit interested in animals or farmers.

However a serious Public Health issue would wipe the smug look off Blair's face. What if the public (via the tabloid press) were made aware AIDS and TB are being brought into the country while the Government looks the other way?

Talking of looking the other way Pat, one morning when I went through Heathrow the boys and girls from H.M.C.&E. were evidently having a meeting about strike action!

All the best,
Bill.
                        

Originally from: Pat Gardiner
                        
Bill

I hope we are not boring everyone, but I think it is in the interests of you all that we continue to explore this a little more. I very grateful for this chance to contribute.

You are correct in saying that meat is smuggled with passengers, and not just from Africa. However, this is in comparatively small quantities, certainly not in commercial volumes.

I’m sure you realise that almost all meat accompanying passengers is legal either under their allowance or because it comes from approved sources. However much we may disapprove, it is not smuggling

For an air passenger, as you know, their total baggage weight is limited. They must bring some personal possessions, so the maximum smuggled would be limited to their total baggage allowance less their personal belongings. If the meat is illegal, it is all smuggled, if it is legal only the quantity in excess of the personal meat allowance is smuggling

Bush meat, as an illegal import, probably does have a high gourmet wholesale value, but not enough to make the exercise worthwhile. The value per kilo is certainly too low. Drugs, of course, have a very high value per kilo. So it is wrong to make a parallel. Drugs are a very different matter.

There may be attempted smuggling of larger quantities and some may get through. But a wholesale value/cost of shipment equation would apply. Accompanied baggage and indeed airfreight would be out. That would mean that commercial quantities, where they exist, would take a different route into the country.

The methods of detection would be entirely different. Heathrow would not be the route or sniffer dogs the solution.

Now, I’m sure you are right, that passengers bring with them all sorts of nasties for all sorts of reasons, but fmd is not likely to be caused by meat entering over this route, and I did limit my response to animal disease. The NFU should not be making these allegations. They are misleading farmers and damaging Britain’s interests.

Now, just to touch on the meeting about strike action. If that was the reason and if it was publicised in advance, I most certainly not attempt to smuggle anything though at that time. <very big grin>.

Honestly, we may not like them, but Britain is on the whole, well served by HMC&E. It is not fair or right that MAFF-Defra and their friends should attempt to shift blame in this way.

Regards Pat

PS If anyone mentions impounded motor cars, I will simply complain about closed rural pubs – a subject close to my heart.
                        

Originally from: Bill
                        
Pat,

Sorry, but I will have to disagree.

Biltong is dried strips of meat from whatever type of animal you could imagine. It doesn't form the staple diet but is a special delicacy, used sparingly, as we would use smoked salmon for example.

Biltong sells in London for £3 to £4 for a 100g pack. That's £30 to £40 a kilo so you can imagine how much one suitcase full of it is worth. Easily enough to pay for the trip and have a nice profit.

Sniffer dogs would promote public awareness and who knows, they might even detect the occasional drug or meat smuggler.

That is of course if you believe the Government wants to catch smugglers. (Other than the token easy pickings). I have always held the view Governments encourage the drugs trade because of the huge financial spin offs from crime. What would all the lawyers do without criminals? Of course Blair and his wife are both lawyers!

Going back to the importation of disease there is no doubt at least some of the meat coming into Heathrow will bring H.I.V. and T.B. with it. Both of these are on the increase in London and illegal meat must be a contributary factor.

We are building up reservoirs of both these diseases and eventually there will be an epidemic of both. Last year you got an idea of what an epidemic is like. It's a forest fire that consumes all before it.

If there is a background level of disease infection can be triggered by a smaller dose. Many farmers saw last year how easily animals, particularly cattle, could become infected. In other years you could have turned those cattle out with infected sheep and nothing would have happened.

To get an idea of what a human epidemic is like imagine yourself standing by a graveside at a funeral. Then look around and see there are six, seven or eight other funerals going on at the same time. There are burial mounds with flowers that are still fresh and freshly dug graves waiting tomorrow's funerals. If you travel through Natal, Zimbabwe, Zambia, or Botswana this scene is repeated at every cemetery you drive past.

Alarmist? There is a huge risk from H.I.V. compared to, for instance, B.S.E. Tory and Labour Governments have crucified British farming because of a disease that has killed less than 200 people.

Governments govern by making people fearful so I see nothing wrong in playing them at their own game. Only time will tell if I am right about human epidemics in the U.K. but imagine how Blair and his team of cock-up artists would deal with the situation.

Best wishes,
Bill.
                        

Originally from: Pat Gardiner
                        
Hello Bill

Well, we may disagree a little, but by chance you have given me some really useful information.

I had always assumed that the fuss over “bushmeat” was mainly in respect of illegal imports, mostly of primate meat from West Africa.

Your suggestion that biltong from Southern Africa was a major smuggled item came as a surprise.

Is beef biltong considered a “bushmeat”?

I do know about the fmd situation in Zimbabwe and Botswana

Did any of your information come from sources close to MAFF-Defra or the NFU?

Now, I can tell you all something that you won’t know.

Early in the FMD outbreak MAFF-Defra fabricated a story that smuggled infected South African beef was entering the country via Newcastle on Tyne. No doubt, this was an attempt to explain the appearance of FMD at Waughs.

HMG had to apologise and pay compensation. I can prove this whole allegation with written evidence and will, if anyone is interested provide further information.

The only story that made the press, did not reflect the original fabrication – only a truncated version.

I’m not arguing the point about risks of smuggled meat, but I am wondering if you have been the victim of a second attempt of fabricated news.

Kind Regards
Pat Gardiner

Originally from: Bill
                        
Pat,

I do travel quite a bit to Southern Africa and have Zimbabwean friends in London.

Biltong is an Afrikaans word meaning meat cut into strips, sometimes salted, and then dried. It could be beef, antelope, crocodile, anything. Beef would be from farm animals and bush meat simply means anything that is caught and killed in the bush.

The Zulu word is umqwayiba. Their palate is somewhat more diverse than ours! Certain wild animals are believed to have medicinal properties and others might increase a man's potency or a woman's fertility.

Many of the so-called "miracle drugs" are tribal remedies that have been stolen and patented by arrogant Europeans and Americans. For example the Zulu have no need for "Viagra", they use a herb called "Vusa" . In literal translation "Vusa" means "Raise From The Dead"!!!!!!!!!

To go back to FMD it is my belief the virus got to Cheale Meats before it got to Bobby Waugh's premises. The rest you can probably work out for yourself!

All the best,
Bill.
                        

Originally from: Pat Gardiner
                        
Hi Bill

Author wrote:
Pat,
snip useful information<

To go back to FMD it is my belief the virus got to Cheale Meats before it got
to Bobby Waugh's premises.

Correct

The rest you can probably work out for yourself!

Most of it, yes.

Regards Pat
                        

Originally from: Bill
                        
Pat,

I have been thinking about that MAAF/DEFRA fabricated story about South African beef. Usually when a story is fabricated it is loosely based on fact so have they unwittingly given us a massive clue?

There is a lot of FMD in Zimbabwe. There was an epidemic around Bulawayo when I was there earlier this year.

During the year 2000 Zimbabwean farmers were offloading big quantities of beef (on the hoof or otherwise) because of the impending evictions.

A lot of this will have found its way to Natal (Kwa-Zulu Natal to give it it's new title) in South Africa. Re-labelled as South African it could then be shipped out of Durban and (if it was going to Europe) probably to Rotterdam.

If any did find its way over here it would most likely have been by truck from Holland or Belgium.

Your people could no doubt check this out.

All the best,
Bill.
                        

Originally from: Pat Gardiner
                        
Hello Bill

I hope you won't find it patronising to say that your reply below is exceptionally perceptive.

You are absolutely correct. Parts of the story were true and MAFF hoped that the rest was true. They persuaded themselves what they wanted to be true was true. It was kinder, to them.

The original story had two foreign ingrediants, Chinese and South African, losely cobbled together with infected meat.

The other essential part of a good lie is to give your intended audience something that they want to hear. It stops them delving deeper.

I'm no scientist, but I gather that either a Chinese or a South African origin for this brand of FMD is scientifically likely.

Infected meat gets MAFF and their friends off the hook nicely, but the reality is that FMD almost certainly came in through semen to pigs, most probably from China.

How did I work that out? Easy. MAFF-Defra have been deliberately hiding up data. Find what they are hiding. It did not take long.

Over the months the detailed records of what they would not publish, but others did, have been gradually been removed.

There are probably two reasons for this. Pressure from MAFF-Defra and their friends – and in one case, Murdoch, a desire to protect a "scoop."

QED, as I think you scientists say.

Best Regards
Pat Gardiner

Originally from: Bill
                        
Pat,

Interesting but I'll need a bit of convincing about the pig semen.

For me 2001 was 1967/68 but bigger. There had to be reservoirs of virus which could have been,

1. Endemic. It was the same strain as 1967/68 which could have rattled around in sheep and wildlife, escaping detection because the tests are seriously flawed.

2. Imported. As was without doubt the biggest (but possibly not the only) cause in 1967/68. A number of the outbreaks were linked to 770 lamb carcasses and associated cardboard packaging from Establishment 1408 in Argentina.

3. Endemic topped up to epidemic quantity by Imported. Would possibly be explained by the pig semen. There was some suspicion the lamb carcasses topped up endemic virus in 1967/68.

The Government clearly do not want to have the source (or sources) of the epidemic identified and went to great lengths making sure none of the "rent-a-scientist" inquiries touched on this apparently delicate area.

Why would they want to cover up the fact it was caused by bull semen? Especially if the semen came from China?

Do the Government have something deeply embarrasing or sinister to hide? I looked and looked at the distribution map as it developed and was convinced the army had something to do with it. Were they importing cheap carcasses from outside the E.U.? (Somebody suggested Eastern Europe). Were they buying re-labelled carcasses in Holland?

One thing is for sure we will never know for certain. We are not even certain about 1967/68, and there was a proper inquiry then!

All the best,
Bill.
                        

Originally from: Pat Gardiner
                        
Hello Again Bill

Pat,
Interesting but I'll need a bit of convincing about the pig semen.
For me 2001 was 1967/68 but bigger. There had to be reservoirs of virus which
could have been,
snip detail <

 I read all that with great interest having long suspected something similar, but since I lack the appropriate scientific knowledge, my opinion has no value.

When I have been proved right on other matters, maybe I will comment.

The Government clearly do not want to have the source (or sources) of the
epidemic identified and went to great lengths making sure none of the
"rent-a-scientist" inquiries touched on this apparently delicate area.

Correct

Why would they want to cover up the fact it was caused by bull semen?

Boar semen. CSF came in with boar semen. It seems likely that FMD followed the same route and exploited the chaotic illness and overcrowding conditions in the big pig units at that time.

Especially if the semen came from China?

MAFF¡?s main tasking, at that time, was interpreted as protecting the interests of their stakeholders. Some of their stakeholders also had pig farms in China and elsewhere. This information, with much else, was suppressed.

MAFF-Defra would love me to make a direct allegation for something that cannot be proved. They would be rushing about their stakeholders engineering a gagging writ. That will not help you or British farming. Me? I don¡?t give a damn. You can¡?t do much more to a whistle-blower than I have had to endure.

Do the Government have something deeply embarrasing or sinister to hide?

Yes, plenty, but it might be a mistake to attach ¡§government¡? too closely. I do not think they had a clue about what was really going on until 21st March 2001. Blair then acted necessarily, swiftly, decisively and unfortunately wrongly. He had genuine constraints on his freedom of action. Murdoch had cottoned on a lot faster and Blair must have been very worried about his activities. Look at the Murdoch papers this week-end!

looked and looked at the distribution map as it developed and was convinced
the army had something to do with it. Were they importing cheap carcasses
from outside the E.U.? (Somebody suggested Eastern Europe). Were they buying

„« re-labelled carcasses in Holland?

If the above hypothesis is correct, whatever the risks of infected meat imports, they were not the cause of this outbreak. The activities of some of the big ¡§stakeholders¡?, not farmers, are quite enough to explain the spread of CSF ¡V and I think by extension FMD. Although, like you I suspect that FMD was spread mostly by accident through the loose biosecurity and activities of MAFF-Defra itself.

One thing is for sure we will never know for certain. We are not even certain
about 1967/68, and there was a proper inquiry then!

Exactly. But I did get a chance to have a look at some of the papars covering the 80s Isle of Wight outbreak and they were riddled with errors especially on the question of wind borne arrival. This report must have over-influenced MAFF-Defra this time around.

Kind Regards

PS Would someone very kindly tell me how to use a spelling checker in conjunction with this newsgroup
                        

Originally from: Farmtalking
                        
In a message dated 23/09/02 09:26:15 GMT Daylight Time, ... writes:

PS Would someone very kindly tell me how to use a spelling checker in
conjunction with this newsgroup –

I know the problem Pat! – If you want to be certain of your spelling it's best to write your

reply and either spell check it in your e-mail program, if it has one,
before you send it or write it in word, spell check it there and then copy
and paste the finished message to the board!

Best wishes – Jane

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Originally from: Bill
                        
Pat,

Forgot to answer your question about virus types in South Africa and China.

There is not a lot of information to be had on the distribution of different strains. Type "O" Pan Asian sub-strain I would assume is in China because of the name and it is certainly in South Africa along with their own SAT1 and SAT2.

Not much point asking Pirbright for obvious reasons but, in my opinion, they haven't got much of a clue either. Let's face it, look at their recent track record!

All the best,
Bill.
                        

Originally from: Bill
                        
Hello again Pat,

Your mention of wind borne reminded me of last year. The virus is supposed to hang about in mist but when there is mist there isn't usually wind. Contagious virus by definition spreads because it sticks to everything, boots, clothes, hair. Just like the unpleasant smelly stuff you sometimes step in.

In the Ribble Valley last year infection travelled down the valley against the prevailing wind. It seemed to follow the vets around leaping over farms from one side of the valley to the other.

That's why I've kept telling DEFRA about "space suits". They seem to be in a bit of a corner now over the contingency plans. The last thing they will want to do is admit they were wrong and somebody else was right.

All the best,
Bill.
                        

Originally from: Pat Gardiner
                        
Hello Bill

Well, this will interest you.

Most of my information about the IoW outbreak comes to me second hand and may not always be as reliable as my spelling is bad.

BUT, when FMD broke out haughty reference was made to this outbreak and that "it was windborne since there were no commercial sailings between Brittany and the IoW. Apparently some report must have drawn such a conclusion."

Now I may not be a scientist, but I am/was a shipbroker (and actually loaded was was probably the last cargo on a sailing ship to the IoW. It was Cement from the Thames in about 1960 and the Bill of Lading made reference to "the restraints of Princes and Rulers, Pirates, Barratry of Master or Crew, The Queen's Enemies, Acts of God etc etc.) I was also doubtful because I knew that MAFF were lying when they repeatedly claimed that CSF could spread in the air. Our slaughtered pigs were isolated and were of course clear despite being at the epicentre.

My curiosity was aroused and I did get hold of some of the scientific papers. These were highly detailed and to me mostly incomprehensible, but it was clear that these eminent Danish and US metrologists and similar had established that the prevailing wind was from France at the right time and had made all the appropriate experiments to establish that FMD could indeed blow in the wind for, I think, 180 miles, giev the temperature humidity etc.

Naturally their local knowledge did not extend to the possibility that when the wind blows from France, many little sailing boats with their timid or foolish masters will leave the convolluted yachting paradise that is Brittany and run before the wind to COWES. This I understand does have some significance to the sailing fraternity.

I draw the conculsion that science does have its limitations and that commonsense has its day.

Now I could have this all wrong, but... they didn't get it right either did they?

Best Regards
Pat Gardiner

Originally from: Bill
                        
Pat,

Anyone with common sense makes a far better scientist than one of Blair's bunch of no-hopers. Government scientists are Establishment appointed mouthpieces and are expected to toe the Official Line.

All you have to do to know more about foot-and-mouth disease than a Government scientist is look it up in the Oxford Dictionary. Blow me down it's contagious, not wind borne!!

What they forget is if wind borne the virus would have to maintain sufficient concentration to cause infection. Asking us to believe180 miles is rather like saying if somebody broke wind in Wrexham you would be able to smell it 2 days later in Portsmouth!

Most of the great discoveries are not made by scientists anyway. James Watt was a technician who repaired instruments at Glasgow University and the medical profession learned about vaccination from a milkmaid. Gregor Mendel who discovered genetics was a monk.

Need I say more!

All the best,
Bill.